Welcome to the ILO's Future of Work podcast. I'm Anders Johnsson. Across Africa, millions of young people are preparing to enter the world of work. At the same time, industries are changing, new opportunities are emerging, and employers are looking for people with the skills their businesses need. But training and jobs don't always connect. So how do we build a better bridge between learning and work?
And what role can employers and worker organisations play in making that happen? Ahead of Africa Skills Week in Harare, Zimbabwe, I'm joined by two people who will be there and who approach these questions from what you could call complementary sides of the world of work. Albert Rukeisa works with the Association of Tanzania Employers, while Priya Quedou brings the perspective of workers as an executive member of the Mauritius Trade Union Congress (MTUC).
But they're also both part of an ILO-supported African network of master trainers on work-based learning. Albert, Priya, welcome to the podcast. Thank you Anders. Thank you. So, Albert, let me start with you. One of the things that I hear a lot is that employers say that they just can't find the skills they need, despite the fact that at the same time, so many young people are struggling to find work. So from what you're seeing in Tanzania, where is that disconnect?
So one of the things is the curriculum development process, how the curricula are developed. So you find that there is a disconnect between employers' engagement on developing their learning standards and the learning outcomes. And also to form part of the training process. So that one, you find that the students that are coming from the universities or from the training institutions are equipped and very well trained in the areas that do not meet the employer's requirement because the employers did not form part either of standards development
or they did not form part of the training delivery itself. But is it also maybe that they just don't have enough opportunity to apply what they've learned in a real workplace? Yes. During the learning process, they don't get enough opportunity to practice. So as to get their actual industry experience while they're still in school. So, Priya, Albert has given us the employer's perspective. So what does this look like from the worker's side? Are we sometimes too quick to say that young people lack
skills when there's other barriers preventing them from getting that first opportunity, that first foot in the door? Well, thank you, Anders. So for me, I would believe that from the workers perspective, we all know that the qualification itself, it doesn't really mean having a clear job. So sometimes you will see that people will be asking, oh, you need experience. But then finally the young people will be asking, how can I get experience when the people only are not, you know, giving me the first opportunity?
So I think it's very important, you know, when we talk about the skill gap, we need to talk about the experience and also the opportunity, because at the end of the day, what we want is we want the young learner to go forward with their life, to go forward with the skills that they are being, they are being learned in the school or even the training program, whereby they can build a better future. One of the possible ways that I hear a lot about closing that gap is what we call work-based learning.
But let's make that concrete for our listeners, When we say work-based learning, what are we actually talking about? Albert, let's start with you. Could you give us an example from Tanzania where bringing learning into the workplace has actually worked? What kind of difference does this make for young people? For us in Tanzania, we have really been working together with our social partners, that being the government, the trade unions and the employers,
just to make sure that the work-based learning becomes the reality. I remember in 2016, 2017, the government launched the national guidelines on internships and apprenticeships, where it provided the enterprises, together with the graduates, on how they are going to be learning into their workplaces. So we normally say it's not about only placing the graduates into the workplaces, but it's all about helping them,
taking them through the journey, having them in a proper talent development that they are able to graduate with the skills that are required by the labour market. That means the technical and the other soft skills. Does better work-based learning also translate perhaps into better businesses, greater productivity or competitiveness? In other words, what's the business case for investing in this? That's a very good question. And from employer's perspective,
we should always remember that employment or being at the workplace, employers are producing. They are not doing charity. So always it has to build a business case. And what we've been selling as the employers association, to employers is to look into the competitive advantage and competitive edge that you're bringing to the labour market, that could add value to their productivity. But not only playing part in the workplace training, but also to provide inputs into the curriculum development.
And here, if we, as employers, always the cry out has been: let’s be part of the process from the training institutions, so that when graduates come to us, we don't have much to do, but rather there are few adjustments that we can assist them with, so that they're ready for productivity. So over to you, Priya. From a workers' perspective, what do you think makes an apprenticeship a genuinely good learning opportunity rather than simply a source of cheap labour?
Okay, so, uh, for me, I believe that a good work-based learning, it means that when a young person, a young learner, can answer three simple questions: What am I learning? Who is helping me? And where can this take me? So I, I believe that the learner needs to be able to answer these three questions, and only then is the work-based learning a good one, or it's a bad one. Now, if, for example, an apprentice or a learner is doing the same, the same basic task
again and again without having a guidance or any kind of feedback. Now we have to ask a question whether the placement is giving them enough learning. And for me, I believe that from the trade union perspective, the conditions are equally very important. They need to be an agreement. You cannot go forward with a work-based learning without an agreement. And of course, they need to be a kind of financial compensation. Most importantly, I think this is very, very important as trade union is to have a safe working conditions and social protection.
So I think this also it goes in line with ILO Recommendation 208, which give a very useful reference for everyone to, to come up with these kind of principles. Now, Priya, Albert, you come at this from, from different sides. So my question to the two of you then is when it comes to skills and apprenticeships, do employers and workers actually want the same thing? Oh, okay. Okay, fine. So, uh, yeah Anders.
I think there is a lot of common ground, because I think we both want the same thing. But eventually I think employers, what they want is skilled people who can help the organization to succeed. And at the same time, what workers we want is we want skills that is going to help them to do the job correctly. And also, help them have a decent living and progress. But I think the main issue, the main tension up here is, about the practical arrangement.
I mean, like, who pays? This is a very important question. Who pays and when does the training happen? Who gets access? I think this is also very important. Thank you so much, Priya. I totally agree with Priya's presentation. And I also like the idea that we need to include the social dialogue part. And that has worked very well on our side. And that has worked very well on our side. What becomes possible then when employers and workers actually design these systems together? In our country, we have the Trade Union Congress
and together we have had different initiatives in the area of skills development, including in placements, for instance, when we place as employers organizations, when we take students into the workplace. And then we have shop stewards that are trade union representatives. These are the supervisors who are working with these employees on the shop floor. So they also add a lot of value to skills development and nurturing these younger workers. So we see a lot of partnership between the trade union and the employers
when it comes to skills development. And that one is quite fundamental. But the key questions remain really unanswered. Like when it comes to cost, who is going to pay? Now, the two of you are also part of an African network of master trainers on work-based learning, supported by the ILO with funding from Germany. Have either of you heard something, perhaps from another country that made you think, hey, you know, we could actually try that at home, too.
Uh, okay. So I can go first. So of course, being part of the master trainer program, it's been very fundamental for us. And you could find that there's a different context from Namibia, from Ghana, from Kenya, from Tanzania, Mauritius. So all these contexts were brought together to bring up something very big. But the one thing that I learned a lot from that platform, it’s how are we going to integrate the work-based learning and transform
our workplaces into a better training grounds? If so, we can also think of having the accredited workplaces that are countries that are already doing that, including our friends in Uganda. So that was quite fundamental, taking it from the literature, but also meeting someone who has done it and telling you exactly how it is done, the opportunities and the challenges. Priya, what's been your experience? So I think I would agree with what Albert said, you know,
when we met in Abuja, it was very interesting because there was all the African people who came together, but with different challenges and different experiences. And all of us were asking the same questions. So how are we going to involve the employers and how we support the learners? Also, another very important question, which came out was 270 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,200 And for me, one aspect which was very captivating was about Nigeria, learning through apprenticeship,
but in the informal economy. And I think this is very, very important because from what I gathered from my friends from Nigeria is that the work-based learning also happens in small businesses and workshops. So that both of you have essentially mentioned, therefore, the importance of working together. I think that that gives us a brilliant segue into Africa Skills Week. And one of the proposed outcomes for Africa Skills Week is an African Union-led, what they're calling an industry partnership
and work-based learning compact. Essentially a shared commitment to strengthen apprenticeships, internships, dual training, mentorships, and other forms of learning in the workplace. So let's make that practical. Or at least let's try. Priya, if you're speaking for workers, what would be one or two commitments that you would want governments and employers to make? So, for me, I think I would like the compact
to give everyone a very clear responsibility on who is going to deliver what. So for example, the employers, of course, they should be giving meaningful training, a trained mentors, safe conditions and also fair financial compensations. The government should support the funding. They should be able to give quality standards for the trainings, and also to make sure that the young people should have access to those kind of training. And of course, the workers organizations,
we should be there to shape the programs. That's why I always say, whenever there's a discussion of work-based learning or TVET, the workers organization should be there, should have a seat at the table. Albert, over to you. From the employer side, what would be a commitment that you would want to see? I think one of the commitments that we need to take from Harare, is we need to establish a very robust industry and academia linkage,
and establish a framework or an instrument that will govern that relationship. One of the things that we are currently working on in our country is the establishment of skills sector skills councils as the framework that will support the coordination and eliminate the missing link between the enterprise, the training institutions, and the government, the tripartite partners. But also, if I may ask all the governments
to finance the skills development programs to equitably fund the skills development programs, that includes the infrastructure, the learning materials, all that is necessary for the capacity building within the training institutions and, when necessary, also to contribute or to support through the stipends to these students when they come into the workplace for learning. And then, back to the two of you again, what do you think would ensure that this actually changes things on the ground
rather than just becoming another declaration? So number one is the employer or the enterprise. So make sure that these initiatives are industry led because this is the first and primary beneficiary. So all the frameworks and the agreements should really focus on what does the industry need. Number two is the trade union, or the worker, so to say And if I have to add the third stakeholder, it would be the training institutions. These three partners need to come together and to agree.
And for us not to make it just a piece of paper or another big agreement that we can walk out the room celebrating is to be realistic and having the government as a champion of change or as an agent of change, driving the skills development as a key aspect to drive the economy. So having all these players and having this agent of change and having the realistic targets, I think in my opinion, this won't be just a piece of paper. I'll be able to achieve what we want to achieve. Okay, Priya, over to you, what’s your take?
So I think from from a trade union perspective, I think the compact should include, first it should be very, very basic with clear responsibilities who's going to do what. And then also, which is very important, is funding. I think this is equally important because without funding, definitely we cannot go forward with any kind of training. I think next would be, there needs to be quality learning. You cannot just come up with a kind of learning plan which is not suitable for that particular country,
because even like my country, maybe they need more people in the manufacturing sector or in the tourism sector. So I think it's important to come up with quality learning. And, and I think also it's important is rights and protection. There needs to be a written agreement. Also, we have to take care of the safe conditions you know, the social protection, which is very important as well. But we shouldn't forget that, apprentices should not be used to replace a regular workers. They are learning.
Even in that sector, they are learning. Now of course, we can't talk about skills and skills development in 2026 without bringing up artificial intelligence. So I'm curious, AI is in many ways changing jobs faster than formal training programs can sometimes keep up. Does that, you think, make learning in the workplace therefore even more important? Maybe I would like to answer this because, I feel like, you know, AI is everywhere.
What I would like to say about this is AI is everywhere, whether we want it or not, it is going to be there forever. But then we have to know how to deal with this. And people are scared, you know, so workers basically are scared of AI. That AI is going to take my job away. But I can say, you know, from the research which I did in Mauritius, of course, there are certain works where you can see that of course people are going to lose their job, you know, when we talk of repetitive tasks, when you talk of such kind of job. But at the same time, new jobs are emerging.
But also it's not about the new job, but also the people who are working. You know, they will need to be trained. But then the question is, who is going to pay for the training? And how we are going to address this as workers? This is also a very, very huge question, but I would love to know from Albert, he's from the employer side. I know it's not easy even from the employer's side. Yeah, I love how Priya tried to throw me under the bus and also at the same time defended me that she knows that it is difficult.
We are now requesting the training institutions to come back to the enterprises and take the learning outcomes, all the occupational standards from the industry, ask the industry, how do you see yourself in the next five years and ten years in terms of the use of AI automation and maybe in technology in general, and then go and develop the curricula that will be able to produce students that will be able to be AI fit into the workplace and make sure that no one is left behind during the transition.
And that can be done fairly through the social dialogue between the union and the employers, of course, facilitated by the government. I agree, many people could lose jobs due to the AI introduction, but there are so many other jobs that are developed. The question is, are we ready to take up those jobs? So then one final question for the two of you: Imagine that we're having this conversation again five years from now. What's one thing that you hope will have changed for a young African trying to turn their skills
into an opportunity for decent work? So for me, on my side, I hope that a young person can see a clear next step and feels that their effort has somewhere to lead. Even if it's like someone from a vulnerable group, a women, whoever is there, I think they should be feeling confident when they're entering any kind of training. And I would, I would really love to see that, five years from now, I would like to see that they have quality placements
mentors that encourages her and also recognized qualifications. I think this is very important, which we have to also put emphasis on, recognized qualifications, which can help them later on if they want to move to another kind of job. And after the training program, she or he could say, like, this program helped me. This training has helped me. This workplace has helped me grow. And now I can see myself in a better future with all the skills that I have been learning in the training program.
Thank you so much. Albert? Number one is to have a sound framework that bridges the industry and the training institutions so as to understand what are the actual needs of the industry, so as the training can provide that. And also the industry can form part of the training through their work-based learning. That is number one that I truly wish to happen the next five years. And number two, I really wish to see a graduate
from the college or training institutions who is competent enough to go to the industry and ready to deliver. Also to look into a shift because graduation does not mean necessarily to come from the college, but also somebody could graduate from the workplace. So a shift from a college nation to workplace nation, where we can train more people in the workplace and accredit people into the workplace through different programs, including recognition of prior learning
and the other work-based learning that we can adopt. That's what I truly wish so as we can bridge the gap that is currently available. Albert, Priya, thank you both for joining me. I'm really wishing you both all the best in Harare as you continue this conversation at Africa Skills Week. And I really hope that the kind of commitments that you've been discussing today are what comes out of the discussions that take place there. Thank you so much, Anders. Thank you so much, Anders.
It was a pleasure having you. And to our listeners, thank you for joining us. If you'd like to find out more about skills development or about the Towards a Global TVET Agenda Initiative that the ILO is part of, please visit our website at www.ilo.org You can also follow the ILO on YouTube, Facebook and LinkedIn at @International Labour Organization and on Instagram, X, Bluesky, and Threads at @ILO.org.
But for now, thank you for listening and until our next episode, here's goodbye from the ILO's Future of Work podcast.
