Good afternoon and welcome to our lunchtime conversations brought to you by the ILO's Future of Work podcast series. I'm Ibon Villelabeitia, and we're coming to you from the International Labour Conference here in the Palais des Nations in Geneva. Each day we look at some of the key questions shaping the world of work. Across many economies, growth remains uneven and productivity growth has slowed. The challenge is not only how to grow, but
how to do so in ways that create decent work while also supporting strong and competitive businesses. Today, we're exploring a question that sits at the heart of this challenge. Can responsible business conduct help create the conditions for both stronger business performance and better jobs? Businesses are under pressure to stay competitive and adapt to new technologies and markets. At the same time, workers are looking for jobs that are safe, fairly paid, and that offer dignity and
stability. The question is how these priorities come together in real workplaces and what role responsible business conduct can play in making that happen. To discuss this, I'm joined today by Mark Birrell, who is the President of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, representing businesses of all sizes across Australia's economy. We have Abdul-Moomin Gbana, who is the General Secretary of the Ghana Mine Workers Union, who will be bringing
the perspective of workers from one of Africa's major mining sectors. And we have Githa Roelans, who is the Unit head for Multinational Enterprises and RBC at the International Labour Organization. Welcome to all of you, and thank you for being here. Mark, let me start with you. You are the President of Australia's largest business network of businesses across all sectors of the economy.
How do you see the link between responsible business conduct and productivity in real practice, and what makes that connection work well and what gets in the way? It's an important discussion for all of us, and that's why I welcome this today. Ninety per cent of the world's jobs are created in the private sector, and most of those jobs are in small businesses. So the challenge is to ensure that we can have very responsible business conduct that connects
us well with customers, with our employees, with any regulators in a national environment, and also ensures that investors and suppliers are part of that responsible environment. I think it can work very well, and it should be in the interests of all of those parties to ensure that we do that well, and then you get a productive outcome. In a very practical sense, responsible business conduct creates trust and it reduces risk, and that's good for a business. It's
good for it in a long-term sense, which is what we would want to encourage. And if you ensure that there's a high level of trust and a reduction of risk, an increase of training and an elimination of waste, then over time that will improve the productive environment of the nation or the state that it is working in. As employers, we seek to encourage that behaviour, and as employers, we see a lot of very good examples of that working. From my own country of Australia, I think it does.
But we always have lessons to learn. Stronger business performance is important because you want businesses to thrive so that they can employ more, so that they can take more from other suppliers, which boosts their business. That's good for your economy. And if you get efficiency through that, then that improves economic growth and employment growth. These are outcomes we all want. Thanks for that, Mark. Let's listen now to the workers. Abdul-Moomin Gbana, you come from one of the
most important mining countries in Africa. From a workers' perspective, what does responsible business conduct actually look like on the ground? What difference does it make in people's daily working lives? Thank you very much. I must say that Ghana, and by extension the rest of Africa, have gone through a lot of phases economically. And so from the era between 1960 and 1970,
it was predominantly state-owned and so operations were state-controlled. However, in the 80s, we had what we call the introduction of the Economic Recovery Programme, which led to what we call the introduction of the Structural Adjustment Programme. And that essentially was to shift the concentration from state-owned government control to the private sector. And so you had a lot of multinationals trooping into the Ghanaian economy. And so there were certain productive sectors
of the economy, particularly the extractive sector, that became the preserve of private participation. And I must say that between the era 1960–1970, when it was under state control, to when you had the influx of foreign direct investment, legislation was relatively very weak. Health and safety standards were very poor. Wages and salaries had stagnated for years. Generally, if you look at the institutional framework, it was also quite questionable.
But with the arrival of foreign direct investment, we began to see some gradual shift from technical inefficiencies to efficiencies because then you had productivity going up. You also had legislation, new legislation coming into the sector, and for that matter health and safety, wages and salaries of workers began to improve. And so between that era and when you have the arrival of foreign direct investment, that was what the scenario was. Between the 1980s
up until date, a lot has happened. You have today situations where, with the arrival of foreign direct investment from the East and also with the advent of globalization, and for that matter labour market policies that have travelled from the global North to the global South, you have begun to see certain employment trends. And so you have fragmentation of production, which has resulted in non-standard forms of employment. You have casualization, you have flexibilization,
and so the general work environment has become quite uncertain, and so the level of precarity has gone up. Workers, unfortunately, their respect for rights and freedoms have become quite challenged over the period. Wages and salaries have gradually begun to stagnate owing to the fact that you have all these non-standard forms of employment in the system. So job security has become a challenge.
Income security has become a challenge. Because hitherto you had a permanent job, but now as a result of outsourcing you have too many non-standard forms of employment. In the mining industry in Ghana, for example, you have 90 per cent of employment more or less in temporary engagements. And so you have situations where jobs are no longer secured, incomes are no longer secured, their rights to freedom of association and collective bargaining, fundamental principles
and rights at work have become undermined and challenged. And so responsible business conduct will require a reversal in that current narrative. But until that is done, I must say that the current situation is quite precarious. It has become very problematic for workers in Ghana, not just in the mining industry because it's symptomatic of the entire Ghanaian economy. And so you have too many jobs which are in temporary arrangements, and so guarantee to social security
has also become a major challenge for workers in Ghana. But the good thing is that there is that conscientization, there's that consciousness from all the tripartite partners. And so we have begun to see some drive towards legislative reforms to ensure that businesses behave more responsibly, they respect workers' rights, at least wages and salaries do not stagnate, productivity goes hand in hand with the overall performance of workers by way of their wages and
conditions of service. And so within the Ghanaian context, and by extension the African context, I must say that responsible business conduct is a major hot topic. It's a matter that requires all the tripartite partners working together to ensure that we change the narrative over time. Thank you, Gbana, for that interesting insight about that precarious labour situation you describe and stressing the importance of tripartite cooperation. Let's bring
now in the ILO's policy and evidence-based perspective into this conversation. Githa, how should we understand the relationship between responsible business conduct and productivity? Under what conditions can responsible business conduct strengthen performance of enterprises and at the same time competitiveness? Well, thank you very much for inviting also the ILO as the Office to participate in this conversation. And I would like to thank my fellow panellists,
Mark and Abdul, to also participate and give the perspectives of the employers and the workers, which are of course at the heart of these discussions as well. And I very much like the question actually, or the topic. You have productivity at the one hand and responsible business conduct at the other, and very often they are seen as separate conversations. When we talk about productivity, it's very often how can we actually increase the productivity of SMEs, and I think that is also where a lot of the focus has been on, productivity growth,
how can you actually realize it. Whereas when we talk about responsible business conduct, very often we look at large companies that immediately fall under certain expectations, and then how do you actually bring these agendas together? And I think that is what we are talking about today in this conversation. It's clear that I would say responsible business conduct is both a driver for productivity, definitely when we talk about SMEs, because it can be an important driver, and
at the same time when we talk about productivity enhancement, it is an important driver for more responsible business conduct. And especially when you bring them together through linkages of large enterprises that are also willing to share their own experiences in productivity enhancement. They can do that while they are engaging with suppliers in the context of a supply chain context, also working on improving working conditions and so on. They can be a really powerful driver. Now, within
the ILO context, we have various frameworks in relation to, at the one hand, responsible business conduct and at the other hand, productivity enhancement. All of them are linked to the promotion of sustainable enterprises. And I think we should not forget, and I look at our Director, as well, here participating in the audience, it is really in sustainable enterprises that decent work really takes shape. And sustainable enterprises are enterprises that are, of course, economically
resilient, successful, that have access to finance, that can create jobs, that can provide the good working conditions that are needed. They are also socially responsible and at the same time also environmentally sustainable. I think it brings together those three elements. And I will just quickly mention the ILO frameworks that we have in relation to responsible business conduct and productivity. The ILO has a tripartite instrument, the Tripartite Declaration of
Principles concerning Multinational Enterprises and Social Policy, the MNE Declaration, that is really the ILO's instrument to engage with governments, social partners and with enterprises on responsible business conduct, and I would say the whole social dimension of responsible business conduct. Its aim is really to encourage the positive contribution of the private sector – and you mentioned it, Mark, already – the positive contribution of the private sector to inclusive economic growth and decent work, and at the same time mitigating and resolving potential adverse
impacts of business operations. And we've seen over the years a lot of emphasis has gone now into mitigating and resolving the adverse impacts, specifically through due diligence processes. So we've lost a little bit the emphasis also on the importance of working together with SMEs on dealing with some of the challenges that they have, not only in terms of compliance, but also in terms of really being able to grow and increase productivity so that they can offer good working
conditions and so on. So this is an important element. We also have in the ILO, of course, the productivity ecosystems for decent work, which is another framework that looks at the various ecosystems at the national, sectoral and enterprise level, how all these elements need to come together to lead to decent work. And I think I will leave it here with this first question. Thank you, Githa. Indeed, it's in sustainable enterprises where decent work takes shape, as you
mentioned. We've heard from different perspectives – business, workers, and now we just heard from Githa and the ILO. Let's move from the generic picture to what is actually happening in practice. And Mark, I may ask you first again one more time. Can you share with us and with the audience here a concrete example where business practice has improved productivity and working conditions, and tell us, walk us a bit through what made that possible and what can help it scale up? Well, to
have a sustainable enterprise that you talk about, I'll give an example in response to your question. Occupational health and safety, and cooperation on a tripartite basis, is a very clear example that if you get that right, then the business is more productive. At the very obvious example, you don't want to have workplace injuries. No one gains out of that. Everyone loses out of it. And if businesses can focus on improving their occupational health and safety practices and their
culture, then you get the reward. I certainly think in Australia we have a good tripartite discussion on it. We have what you need: clear legislation, clear regulations, and then good explanation. And if you have those three, you're much more likely to increase standards. We had a debate here at the ILO two years ago and three years ago which helped in this area, and now as a result I think we have a better discussion about occupational health and safety as
being a journey that we're all on. If you get that right, you improve productivity and of course your business is more sustainable. You build trust and you ensure that you have a commitment of everyone to the business that you're trying to grow. Thank you. Abdul, the same question. If you can give us an example, when productivity improves in your sector, do workers actually see that reflected in wages, safety, which Mark was just mentioning, and working conditions through responsible business
conduct? Well, thank you very much. Interestingly, the answer isn't an outright yes or no. But I would say that yes, in a sense, because there are enterprises that are very clear and understand that productivity is inextricably linked to wages, salaries, conditions of service and all that. And so within the Ghanaian context, there are companies in the mining industry where I operate
that are very sensitive to productivity-induced wages and working conditions. And so you take, for example, a company like Gold Fields. Gold Fields is a South African mining company. Gold Fields just doesn't recognize workers by way of their input, which results in productivity, and for that matter they get paid productivity-enhanced or induced bonuses at the end of the year. They
actually go the extra mile or the extra length of sharing profit, and so at the end of the year the company is able to declare profit and share portions of the profit with employees. Similarly, there are other companies such as Ghana Manganese Company, CG Mining. These are mining companies within the Ghanaian ecosystem which are very attentive to productivity-induced wages and, for that matter, conditions of service. And so you have some of these companies that appreciate
the relationship between productivity, wages and working conditions. And so overall what I can say for a fact is that the Ghana Mine Workers Union, being the representative of the workers, has been very resolute in negotiating conditions of service that correspond to productivity metrics so that at the end of the day the best interests of workers are always protected. Thank you, Abdul, for that. And Githa, I'm going back to you. Let's bring again the tripartite conversation into this.
How might the tripartite constituents work together in national contexts to foster greater synergies between responsible business conduct and productivity improvement? Yes, I think it was already mentioned also by Mark, the importance of social partners and government coming together. I would say at the national level, but also the sectoral level. And we can even, and I think that's equally important, look at how management and the workers actually come together to see what productivity improvements can actually be realized. And
secondly, how can you come to a more fair sharing of the benefits that are actually realized through enhanced competitiveness? That actually, when you talk about enhanced productivity, should lead to enhanced competitiveness and access to markets also for companies. And then how do you actually share this in a more fair way with the workers as well? And you talked about it, increasing wages. We could also start investing more in training opportunities so that innovation,
all of these important elements that help also the company to continue to grow. But of course you need to bring those elements together of responsible business conduct, what you want to promote, as I said, the positive contribution of business to socioeconomic development and decent work. And how do you make sure you don't have an adverse impact? And it also means providing support to enterprises to indeed go into that direction. And there, tripartite constituents have an important role to play. We, through the follow-up mechanism of the MNE Declaration,
we have a mechanism with national focal points at the country level where tripartite constituents come together. They start identifying which are specific priorities that they could start working on together. In the context of Ghana, and I think I'm very pleased to have Ghana actually on the panel because Ghana does have national focal points for the promotion of the MNE Declaration. It's tripartite plus because it also involves the Ghana Investment Promotion Agency,
which is there also to stimulate linkages between multinational enterprises and local businesses so that you also have this kind of transfer of technology, transfer of production systems, all of these that can actually lead to enhanced productivity, competitiveness, access to markets and of course linked to responsible business conduct. But social dialogue is critical, whether it happens at the national level, at the sectoral level and also at the enterprise level. And there
is something in the context also of responsible business conduct that we have specifically in the MNE Declaration. And it talks about when you do your due diligence processes to identify risks, mitigate, resolve these risks, a very important component there is meaningful engagement with rights holders, including of course with workers and their representative organizations. And that really shows how that mechanism of engagement between management and the workers to jointly
identify potential adverse impacts, but also it can be identifying, you mentioned occupational safety and health. I mean that can be a risk for the company if it is not putting in place the right structures, but at the same time it's a very important element to enhance productivity. Okay. So when these come together and there is an open and, I would say, a really meaningful engagement between management and the workers to jointly identify where are some risks,
but at the same time what is the potential to also enhance productivity, then that is also the way to move forward in a more collective way at the enterprise level. And it can translate itself at the sectoral level when we are dealing with broader issues and then of course also at the national level. So social dialogue, I would say, at all levels is key. Yeah, I think you just said it there, some very important points: social dialogue and meaningful engagement. Let's try now to take this conversation going forward and to see what would strengthen that connection. And
I'm going to start again with you, Mark. Looking ahead, what are the biggest gaps that still need to be addressed better to align productivity and responsible business conduct? There are many, but at the heart of getting sustainable businesses is them knowing what path they're on and whether that is a shared path with the regulators in their environment or the governments in their environment. If there is a long-term commitment in their state or region or territory or nation which
says we want to grow businesses, particularly small businesses because they're the great employers, if there's a long-term commitment to that and that we're going to try and make out the best way that you can employ extra people, you can meet the needs of your customers, then you will get a changed environment. It's when there's uncertainty or lots of changing rules or lots of extra charges that small businesses in particular retreat and they say, "Well, we can't cope with everything you're wanting of us and everything we want to do." And therefore, that
certainty of rules and the long-term objective. The best example that comes to mind for me is a shared objective about training, about the nation or state having a view that we want to up the skills of our people. We want to make sure they've got 12 years of primary and secondary schooling or the equivalent. We want to help them if they wish to go to technical colleges or universities and therefore get a higher-skilled environment. That means businesses have got great people to employ.
That's how it helps. And all of a sudden, you've got everyone saying, "Oh, I can see the outcome of this. Better training, better education, better standards." And the employers, particularly small businesses, say, "I could get exactly the type of person I need for my business." And the customer's saying, "I don't know how you did it, but it seems to be working better." That's a shared objective. And I stress small and medium-sized businesses because they're the most common businesses in the world. We often talk about large corporations. They find it slightly easier to do all of this.
It's the others that have to be helped along, and we need that common shared long-term vision, and then they could be part of it. Thank you. Long-term common vision. You also mentioned clarity of rules. Abdul, what is the single most important change that would make the biggest difference in terms of workers and ensuring that productivity gains translate into decent work? Yeah, thank you very much. I think that I'll start by associating myself fully with Mark's submission
on training. As workers, the world of work continues to evolve. Indeed, with the advent of artificial intelligence, robotization and all the new phenomena happening within the world of work, workers are obviously going to have serious challenges going into the future. And so there's an urgent need for workers to be retooled so that we can take full advantage of the opportunities
that will be presented in the new world of work. And so training becomes extremely crucial to prepare not just the present but the future workforce for the labour market. Aside that, one other very critical driver of all of this is social dialogue. And indeed, Githa touched eloquently on social dialogue. Social dialogue ought to be strengthened. In Ghana, for example, our legislation actually has provision on national tripartite social dialogue, but at a sectoral
level it is quite sparse. And so sectoral social dialogue is extremely important. And so we are looking at how we can institutionalize sectoral social dialogue and ensure that the tripartite partners at that level can engage more effectively and deal with issues that are of mutual concern and interest. And we believe that if we get around the table and we are able to discuss matters of mutual interest, it will go a long way to enhance and strengthen responsible business conduct and,
for that matter, decent work in the industry and by extension the economy. Thank you. Githa, you were nodding when Abdul was mentioning social dialogue, the importance of social dialogue. In your view, what is the single most important factor in making sure that productivity growth and responsible business conduct translate into better jobs and better working conditions? So I'm actually not going to use one terminology, but I think we need to talk about policy coherence. It's for me a critical component. And the other one is collective action. Because first of all, policy
coherence is very important because we cannot say, at the one hand, responsible business conduct is just about due diligence and compliance, and those that cannot comply, well, sorry, we cut ties and then we leave it. It's actually about supporting those that are having some challenges. And it can be related to productivity challenges, it can be related to others, but how do you actually help them? How do you put in place a conducive environment for sustainable enterprises so that
indeed they can actually make progress and not just comply, but actually even have a lot of opportunities to grow and become more competitive and resilient and have access to markets? I think that is a critical component. And the other hand is collective action. And I think we've discussed this many times before, but there are very clear roles for legislators. You mentioned it. The government has an important role to play, social partners have an important role to play,
and companies themselves are very important actors. And it's only when you bring those together to jointly address common challenges that you can really get things moving. And I think that is what we all should strive for. The ILO has very good mechanisms to bring together the social partners and the government to collectively look at what the challenges are, what the opportunities are, develop jointly road maps, again with very clear responsibilities and commitments,
and then identify really what is needed and who is going to do this. And not just then make commitments but also follow up on them. And that is sometimes where we definitely need more action. Very often we see beautiful road maps that are being developed, but then what needs to happen is the real work and the continued engagement of all partners to make the difference and make progress. Thank you. The continued engagement of all partners. And I think we can leave it there.
Thank you to the three of you for this very rich and grounded discussion. We've heard today that productivity and responsible business conduct do not need to be in tension. When the conditions are right, they can reinforce each other, supporting stronger businesses and better jobs. We've heard clear and predictable public policies, collective action, strong institutions, effective dialogue between governments, employers and workers, and attention to the real conditions of firms and workers. Thank you for listening to this edition of the ILO's Future of Work podcast
series. Be sure to tune in again as we continue to explore the major transformations shaping the world of work today. You can follow us online @ILO on X, TikTok and YouTube, @ilo.org on Facebook, Instagram, Threads and Bluesky, and at the International Labour Organization on LinkedIn. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to welcoming you again soon. Goodbye.
